Yes I am up at 1 Am...i got working on a video for Sunday and got it knocked out tonight BUT it is late. I was looking through some of the blogs I read and over and over I was blown away by Perry Noble of NewSpring Church in Anderson SC. Love this guys, love his heart. Here is just a short piece he blogged the other day...
I am COMPLETELY COMMITTED to doing whatever it takes to funding the next generation instead of fighting them. (Andy Stanley quote!) If we are going to be a church that is willing to go to unfamiliar places–we need to be willing to embrace what is unfamiliar!...
The previous generation has never worshiped Jesus the way their parents worshiped Him…what’s next for the church?
I want a church that causes hell to be less crowded!
Ok, go to www.perrynoble.com and check this guy out. He is an incredible leader and he allows others on his staff to lead out.
While Noble may have a great heart that is truly broken for the lost, his practices concerning church are misguided and needs to be addressed.
ReplyDeleteHe has played Beyonce and AC/DC in "worship" services! What next..."Christianizing" Cannibal Corpse and 50 Cent's music and using that? There obviously is a line that should not be crossed and Noble has gone miles past it.
Noble is guilty of creating a church that is designed around man, not God. His idea of what a church should be doesn't really line up scripturally with the early church in Acts or in other ancient texts. A church should be for believers, not a tool for evangelism. If a lost person comes, that's ok. But we should be sure to never cater to them.
That all being said, if we all did our job of evangelizing the lost (one on one witnessing, open air preaching, giving out gospel tracts, etc.), this issue would be a moot point. However, because we have failed miserably at evangelism, folks like Noble and those like him feel it necessary to create "circus churches" that are more people focused than God focused. God is most glorified when His Word is taught, not when our ears get tickled by "sermons" about how to have a better sex life.
We must be careful to remember that because something is new does not mean that it is good...and just because something is old does not mean that it should be discarded.
wow, ryan, I could not disagree with you more...guess we have a circus church. The church is about redemption, it is the hope o the world, when the church became a shelter for those who believe, it became a place for modern day pharisee. we are always aware of the one who is lost, tat one lost sheep, on lost coin. Jesus spent his entire lost for the lost, I am cool with building a church that does that and then makes disciples. Just do not agree with ya but thanks for reading and thanks for posting, we will just have to disagree here. again thanks for thinking out loud.
ReplyDeleteIs ryar r series? "A church should be for believers, not a tool for evangelism" Surely this is a joke. Did ryan r read the words of Jesus? I think He told the "church" to "Go" and make disciples. You can't make a disciple unless you evangelize the lost first. The process begins at salvation.
ReplyDeleteJesus actually even appeared to the church after the resurrection and said, "you shall be my witnesses". When the believers obeyed numbers were added to them daily. As I understand it, that's what happening at the church where Perry Noble leads. If ryan r is not familiar with the current state of the church world, that's not happening in many settings in America.
God bless a guy that can attract a lost world, introduce them to an awesome God, help them know His Son Jesus, baptize them in the Spirit of God, and send them back out to repeat the process. I really thought that's what the church was here to do!
Excuse me, I meant is ryan r serious? I wrote series. That's pretty funny though, because we may plan a "series" around this dialogue! Seriously.
ReplyDeleteI'm jumping into the middle of this by way of following Ron's tweets and just want to say YOU GO Michael! People are desperate for relevant, powerful, life giving & releasing teaching and mentoring about God. And God is desperate to see His people LIVE. It sounds like you are teaching life - spiritually, emotionally, physically and financially. Sounds good to me...
ReplyDeleteRyan R,
ReplyDeleteSorry, but you just aren't even close with some of your opinions.
Who decides the line between what is acceptable in worship and what is not? If you think it's you, then I think you are mistaken.
David danced naked before the Lord. In some ways, he was a whole lot like a rock star in his day too. We bust out several of his greatest hits from time to time in our services. Was he a good roll model all the time? Did he screw up? Did his public image represent all things christian?
I am NOT saying that the psalms of David are on the same level as most pop music. Good grief, not at all. I'm just asking you where is this line and who decides it? The answer is scripture of course. Jesus used parables. Stories. Songs are stories too. They help us to think about things in a different way and bring things to light that are difficult to understand. Maybe a Beyonce song really helped make a point in a service. So what? What's wrong with that? Should we only use songs that are written by believers? If so, how do we know that they themselves aren't living in sin and just trying to make a buck. We don't know. That's my point. People are people and good songs are good songs. If you've come up with a standard by which we can know and measure an author's holiness, then please share it with us. I only want to use the more holy, righteous authors out there.....but wait......there aren't any. None of us is more than filthy rags compared to Christ.
You use the word circus. Wow man. It seems to me that there were some pretty elaborate displays of worship recorded in scripture. The best of the best was used to build the temple. Should we not leverage technology and do our very best to create beautiful, compelling environments for people to worship? When you say circus, do you mean quality lighting, sound and content? My word for that is excellence, not circus. Poor lighting, terrible sound and feedback in the mics sounds more like a circus to me.
Is the principle of excellence in worship so far removed from biblical examples? I don't think so. Do you think worship 50 years ago, before stage lights and guitars was more God focused? You may say yes to that. But again, I disagree. 50 years ago with a piano and organ, or today with lighting and drums, it still comes down to the HEART. Not what's on stage or even if there is a stage. What you speak of is personal preference and personal preference can actually be one of the least God centered things of all.
I would encourage you to make some attempt to understand the heart behind a person, church or method before you blast it. Sure, there are some out there that your label might apply to. But not the majority.
To comment on your idea of what the church is and is not, I would just say take some time today and read the new testament a little closer.
This is not meant to be harsh or rude. It's meant to make you want to at least think about it and consider opening up what appears to be a very closed mind.
Ron...you wrote, "Did ryan r read the words of Jesus? I think He told the "church" to "Go" and make disciples. You can't make a disciple unless you evangelize the lost first." I agree 100%! Where I think we disagree is that I do not believe that the church should be doing that within the walls of its building. Jesus said "GO!" not stay in our seats and hope the pastor does an alter call at the end. The church is for believers. Evangelism is done outside of the church and then new believers are assimilated in.
ReplyDeleteI have been to many, many "seeker" churches and I have found that they have a common thread...they are full of kids that grew up in a more traditional church, rebelled, and joined the seeker church. It's not that these churches are celebrating an increase in salvations and new members...it's that we are simply recycling old church members into new ones. The drop in church attendance nationwide proves that the seeker churches aren't really doing what some think they do.
Perry Noble has said to folks like me things like, Such and such amount of people got saved - so you cannot question the effectiveness of what we do. Of course I can. That is pragmatism at its worst. It does matter how we conduct worship and how we treat our church services. Paula Cole, Benny Hinn, and the rest of the name it claim it crowd say the same thing. They say that all that matters is that people are saved. Pragmatism is a cancer that has taken Christianity down a path that may be impossible to get out of.
Your church may be an exception and I hope and pray with all my might that it is, but it's a slippery slope that I think you're on.
Visit A Little Leaven to see some of the complete silliness that is going on in churches across America today. When a church tries to trick people to come to church by having sermon series titled after the most popular TV shows or the newest trend, the lost see through this. Having a sermon series on how to have your best sex life is nothing more than a joke to those who don't go to church. Can anyone truthfully look me in the face and tell me that having Elvis or clowns leading worship is God honoring?
If you're really intent on reaching the lost, go to them. Leave the church building and go to the local shopping mall, town center, or city hall. Stand on the steps and preach the gospel. You will reach more lost people with the gospel in one day than you will in an entire year in your church building.
Someone asked, "Should we only use songs that are written by believers?" UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....YEAH. Here's your sign. I am not at all trying to be rude, but I sincerly hope that you were being sarcastic with that comment. Biblical worship of our father should include songs that are didactic (look it up seekers) and apparent to anyone as a praise song to the Creator. Keith Getty and Stuart Townend have written some of the most beautiful songs of all time. Passion has put out some great songs too. They should exalt God and instruct us. Anything less should be discarded. We do not go to church to be entertained. We go to learn and exalt God.
Another said, "People are desperate for relevant, powerful, life giving & releasing teaching and mentoring about God. And God is desperate to see His people LIVE. It sounds like you are teaching life - spiritually, emotionally, physically and financially." Wow, where do I begin. First, people are desperate for salvation. Anything else that comes from that is great, but the gospel is really what the lost needs. God wants sinners to repent and turn to Him. I have no idea what "teaching life" means...but I do know that physical and financial prosperity is not something that we should focus our existence on. Was Paul healthy and wealthy? Of course not.
As for me having a closed mind, I must quote John MacArthur: "Having an open mind is not a virtue, it's one step away from being a moron." I know the truth of Scripture and, to the best of my understanding, have stated plainly what it says. I refuse to allow myself to be polluted with failed attempts to trick people into the faith.
I am so thankful that there are churches that are breaking out of the seeker mold to truly reach the lost with the gospel. Pastors and leaders like Johnny Hunt, John MacArthur, and John Piper are standing up for biblically faithful, expositional preaching, God honoring churches that cater to only one: God Himself.
It really doesn't matter if we have 5000 in our church or 50. What matters most is that we are faithful to God and the Bible and that we reject the man-centeredness that has overtaken so many churches.
Wow...again thanks for the post, you can find what you want at most churches in America, some of us just want to rethink what church looks like. We are the minority. with the way you are thinking you will have no problem fitting in with most churches. I greatly respect those pastors you mentioned but I do not rail against them when they do thing I would not do here at GCC. We do evangelism by building relationships, if you would like to know I can tell you my friends who are not yet Christ followers. I respect you but I could never agree with most of what you have shared. about music...I have used songs from non Christ followers many times...truth is truth and all truth comes from God and if one who is lost captures a moment of truth it is from God and by God's grace. They may not know it but anything we use in media we would use to make a point and drive people to the cross.
ReplyDeleteI know you are passionate about what you are saying and I am not angry at all...like I said, if you do not like what you see in some churches do not be a part of them BUT you can learn from them. Learn from everything. You have the freedom to plant or join any church you want. God has given you that freedom.
Ryan R,
ReplyDeleteIn your responses, you are taking folks posts out of context. You respond to a single line or word, without referencing the intent of the statement as a whole.
Take the time to debate the entire point instead of attacking just the words that are easily misunderstood out of context. (spin doctor bate, if you will)
Here is an example. These are your words, verbatim.
"Someone asked, "Should we only use songs that are written by believers?" UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....YEAH. Here's your sign. I am not at all trying to be rude, but I sincerly hope that you were being sarcastic with that comment."
Sorry ryan r, but that's not all I asked. Go back and read that entire paragraph. Clarify to other readers what you think I meant if you would, because clearly, you missed the entire point. If that's all you got from what I said, then you didn't read the whole post or you like to spin it up.
Honestly, responses like that greatly reduce the crediblity of your words. Anyone can see what you are doing and it also makes it clear why you may view things the way you do.
Context is a pretty big deal.